#208 – Motherhood Minus the Medals with Helen Bryce

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

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I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

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I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

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on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of this land.

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And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

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And as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

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would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

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knowing and my own elders and teachers.

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Welcome back Mamas.

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Today, I am speaking to a divine Mama of four based in the UK who has published

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a collection of poetry about motherhood.

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Not the type of poetry that sings the praises and focuses on the love.

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Although, yes, there are some poems in there.

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This is our type of poetry on this podcast.

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It's a poetry around the reality of motherhood.

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Motherhood in patriarchy, motherhood that is full of complexities and

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contradictions that you can feel lonely, even though you are never alone.

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That you can love so deeply and desire your freedom, so deeply.

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This book is called Motherhood Minus the Medals.

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It's published under the name, Nelly Bryce, but the author's

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real name is Helen Bryce.

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I jumped on a call to talk to Helen about her collection of poetry,

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which she mostly wrote during COVID lockdown over the last two years.

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And how this creative outlet, this reflection on the experience of

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motherhood, not only is the statement to the world about what we need.

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But has also been incredibly healing for her.

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Enjoy.

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Helen welcome to the podcast.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:02:01

I'm so excited to talk to you.

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I have loved reading your collection of poetry.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:08

Thank you.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:08

It's so lovely to be here.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:10

Thank you for having me.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:02:11

You're welcome.

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So how did this collection of poetry begin?

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You are a Mama of four.

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And when did this artistic streak begin?

Helen Bryce: 00:02:24

I often think that I started this during lockdown, because that was

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when I wrote the majority of the book.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:28

Well actually it probably started after my first was born, so

Helen Bryce: 00:02:32

that's 10 years, 11 years ago now.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:34

Um, and I think at that point, It was the first time I I'd always

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written a journal or a diary kind of throughout my teenage years.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:41

Um, I stopped it during my twenties.

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And then when my, daughter was born, suddenly found myself completely in

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flux and turned back to this, this thing that had always kind of saved me when

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I'd been in difficult times before.

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And I picked up my journal when I was, when I was going through

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some difficult times after having my daughter and started writing.

Helen Bryce: 00:02:59

And I think it was only in the last couple of years, I realised that some

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of what I was writing was poetry.

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I almost didn't define it as such, I thought it was just scribblings

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that were coming out of my head.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:07

So the very first one of the poems that goes the furthest back is probably from

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then, but the majority of it was written during lockdown the last couple of years.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:14

Which I think for everybody brought things to her head, didn't it.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:16

And you kind of really started to, think about who I was as a mother.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:21

And, and I kind of pulled back from that whole experience I think.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:03:26

Because you really write from this point of

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view of how invisible, how unseen, uncelebrated, unvalued, unsupported

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motherhood is in a patriarchal society.

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Did you feel that right from the very beginning?

Helen Bryce: 00:03:45

Yeah, I think I did.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:46

I think I did.

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And I think I was really shocked by it.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:50

I don't think I expected it.

Helen Bryce: 00:03:51

I think I was, I mean, I, I write in the book that I was probably shamefully naive

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to it because I was in my own bubble of, of youth I suppose, and, and privilege.

Helen Bryce: 00:04:01

And then, yeah, I suddenly realised when I had this, I had a baby that

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know, I couldn't quite understand how I'd gone from being really visible at

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work and in, in all areas of my life, really to suddenly feeling like what I

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was doing wasn't as important anymore.

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And that hit me because I felt like suddenly taken on the most

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important job in the world.

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And I couldn't work out why nobody else saw that the same way that I did

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so, yeah, I really, really felt it.

Helen Bryce: 00:04:26

And, and the judgment, I think that you feel as a mother, particularly

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as a new mother, I think.

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Particularly your first baby, cause you're not expecting it perhaps.

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The feeling of having to be expected to be a certain type of mother.

Helen Bryce: 00:04:39

Yeah, mixed with the invisibility of, you know, returning to work and suddenly

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being maybe not seen as, as important or as, you know, worthy of promotion.

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Or, you're working part-time and I, I certainly felt like those two things

Helen Bryce: 00:04:52

were so stark that, that it really messed with my, with how I was feeling.

Helen Bryce: 00:04:56

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:04:57

That's it.

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And cause your poetry reflects on that a lot.

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This contrast of being both completely invisible and so visible as a mother

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and being judged in how you do it.

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And this absolute split between knowing and being told you're doing the

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most important job in the world, but having absolutely no resources to do

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the most important job in the world.

Helen Bryce: 00:05:22

Exactly, exactly which doesn't make any sense at all.

Helen Bryce: 00:05:26

And I think, during the pandemic that became more visible to me.

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And perhaps that was some of what spurred me on to start putting this down onto

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the page in that I really felt that split in the way that, um, parents were

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expected to pick up so much of the work.

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And I know everyone suffered during the pandemic that continues to go on.

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But just automatically expected to pick up that work.

Helen Bryce: 00:05:46

Um, again, almost invisibly, uh, without kind of any

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consideration for what that meant.

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And at the same time still feel the pressure to be, you know,

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homeschooling our kids and making sure that they have the best upbringing,

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which of course we want to do.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:00

But yeah, without the resources, it's hard.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:06:03

And I love how you say right at the very beginning that, you

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were brought up by a strong single Mum.

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Who taught you that women can do anything, but then you entered a

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world intent on forcing the opposite.

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I loved how you said that, because that is our generation.

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We were brought up to believe that the world was our oyster.

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We could do it all.

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We could be a mother, we could be a wife.

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We could be a successful business woman, politician, whatever.

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And yet the world is intent on making sure we are not able to do

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all of that because we don't have what we need to be able to do it.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:37

Exactly.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:38

Yeah.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:39

Yeah, exactly that.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:40

Do you think that's a generational thing, do you think that's

Helen Bryce: 00:06:42

different for the next generation?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:06:45

Well, interestingly, the statistics are

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showing us that the next generation of women don't want to have babies.

Helen Bryce: 00:06:50

Yeah.

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Because they've watched us and seen it doesn't work.

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They either fall behind at work or they suffer at home and

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the relationships fall apart.

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And the surveys of the next generation of men and women, the desire to be parents

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is dropping dramatically, I think.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:09

Yeah.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Speaker: 00:07:11

Which is incredibly sad.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Speaker: 00:07:12

Don't you think?

Helen Bryce: 00:07:14

I do.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:15

Yeah, I do.

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I think it would be nice to get to a stage where choosing to become a mother

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was or not to become a mother or a parent was more widely accepted as well.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:24

I think more people are speaking about that now.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:26

And I love that.

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I think it's, it's great that women are no longer expected to simply

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become mothers by default and that, and if they don't then you

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know what use are of they society.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:35

But yeah, the, the fact that I think that choice has been taken out people's homes.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:38

It's yet again, the same thing, isn't it?

Helen Bryce: 00:07:40

There's this feeling that we should have choice and we just don't have choice.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:43

And, and now, you know, there's new choices to be made about even

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becoming a mother in the first place because that support isn't there

Helen Bryce: 00:07:49

in the way that we maybe felt it a little bit further down the line.

Helen Bryce: 00:07:51

But either way, not, not great.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:07:55

No.

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And from my understanding of statistics, they're choosing not to

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become parents because of the system.

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Because there is no support because they've watched the previous generations,

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perhaps suffer is a strong word, but maybe that's what they would use in

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trying to balance and have it all.

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And they're choosing no thanks.

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I don't want to do that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:08:16

So if we had a better system in place, maybe their choices would be different.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:21

Yep, exactly.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:22

Yeah.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:22

That's.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:08:23

Have you spoken to your Mum?

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Has she seen this book?

Helen Bryce: 00:08:26

Um, my Mum has seen the book.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:28

Yeah.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:28

She was really proud of it and she's, she's quite gushy.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:32

I was a bit kind of, oh, it's quite sweary Mum and , and she's, she's

Helen Bryce: 00:08:37

not hugely into, into swearing.

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So, um, she was desperate to take it to her church and, and literally give

Helen Bryce: 00:08:43

a copy to every single person she met.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:45

I was like, oh, maybe, maybe check her that they're okay with the swearing.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:49

Um, but she was so, so proud of it.

Helen Bryce: 00:08:51

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:08:52

Because I think that's the other side of the

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generational conversation, isn't it?

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That I wonder what the previous generations think of the conversations

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that we are starting to have.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:09:04

About how much more we need equality and support and visibility for mothers.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:11

She gave me a book that she'd had once from when she was my age.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:16

About how to be, I suppose, a good mother.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:18

It wasn't actually worded quite so brucely.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:20

But it, it, that was pretty much the premise.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:23

And it had things in it, like, you know, be sure to iron your husband's shirt

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in the right way before he comes home.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:29

I was literally reading the words thinking is this, is this written in

Helen Bryce: 00:09:32

print, is this actually been printed?

Helen Bryce: 00:09:34

And she was like, yeah, it was from a big publisher.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:36

It was lots of our friends had it, it was a widely read book.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:40

Um, all of it was about how to be, you know, great in the home really.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:44

I think that was the main premise of it.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:46

And please your husband, so yeah, quite different.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:09:49

It's not that long ago, Helen.

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But it's not, it's only, it's only our mothers.

Helen Bryce: 00:09:57

Late seventies published.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:01

No.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:01

I was born in the late seventies.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:03

That's that's the start of my generation.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:05

Wow.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:06

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:08

So you talk a lot about the patriarchy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:11

You have a poem in there, the feminist mothers club.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:14

There's a lot of these conversations around the role of women and mothers.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:19

What do you hope that this will do?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:10:21

What conversations do you want to have had when people read this book?

Helen Bryce: 00:10:28

Well, the first thing I really hoped was that they felt a bit

Helen Bryce: 00:10:31

reassured that it wasn't their fault.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:34

Because I think, when I first became a Mum 11 years ago.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:37

Like there wasn't social media then, and I didn't have a smartphone, so I wasn't

Helen Bryce: 00:10:41

able to follow people like you, Amy, and find that reassurance and that support.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:46

And I felt really lonely.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:47

And I'm sure that that is still the case for lots of mothers

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now that they feel some of that.

Helen Bryce: 00:10:51

So I hope that it would put into words, some of those feelings that maybe we

Helen Bryce: 00:10:56

then internalise and think we're doing something wrong because we feel this way

Helen Bryce: 00:11:00

or because we're not finding it easy or because we're not loving every second.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:04

And of course, some of that is completely natural regardless of the patriarchy.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:07

But I do think it's worth recognising that some of that is put upon us.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:10

Not necessarily just the way that we feel.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:13

So I definitely wanted some of that.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:15

Cause I wasn't sure whether I should write this book.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:18

Cause I, I think you always think what place have I got or what right

Helen Bryce: 00:11:21

have I got to write this book?

Helen Bryce: 00:11:23

It's just my experience and that's just one experience.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:26

And so I really doubted myself and struggled with that and, and

Helen Bryce: 00:11:30

probably sat in it for far too long.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:32

So I did want it to also be a prompt to say, if you feel some of this, then

Helen Bryce: 00:11:36

write about it and use your voice.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:38

And because I don't think there's enough written about motherhood.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:41

I think it still see me as niche, which is absolute craziness because it's,

Helen Bryce: 00:11:46

you know, it's it's life and death and, you know, it's everything, isn't it.

Helen Bryce: 00:11:49

And I still think that there's a bit of feeling like, I'm gonna bore people

Helen Bryce: 00:11:53

with my motherhood stories or, you know, I don't wanna, I go into work

Helen Bryce: 00:11:56

and obviously it's up to you if you wanna speak about your family and work,

Helen Bryce: 00:11:58

but I certainly felt it was a bit of leave work at, leave home at home.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:02

Don't go on about your children too much so that I look professional

Helen Bryce: 00:12:05

and that I could be taken seriously.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:07

And now, geez, like life is so much more than these things that we

Helen Bryce: 00:12:11

can put into separate categories.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:12

Life is, is about kind of growth and nurturing and responsibility

Helen Bryce: 00:12:18

and love and God so much love.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:20

So I really wanted to, to almost spark some, if you want to write

Helen Bryce: 00:12:23

about motherhood or if you've got even the slightest desire to do that.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:28

I've only been a poet for a few years, I would say.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:30

So go write.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:31

Go.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:31

Don't wait for somebody to give you permission to do it.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:33

Just write it and share it and speak about it.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:36

And let's, let's talk about this amazing experience of

Helen Bryce: 00:12:39

motherhood a little bit more.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:41

And again, that can be linked to the patriarchy.

Helen Bryce: 00:12:43

Cause I don't think that we're always encouraged to think there's probably

Helen Bryce: 00:12:46

more writing about sport and football than there is about motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:12:49

Oh, yes.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:12:51

Absolutely.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:12:52

I mean, we have whole channels dedicated to fishing for goodness sakes.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:12:56

But we don't have, there's only a handful, there's a handful of motherhood

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:00

studies in universities around the world.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:03

It blows my mind that it's not even a well recognised topic to study.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:08

And I love again that you wrote in your book that, you know, we hope one

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:12

day there will be shelves and shelves dedicated to motherhood in libraries.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:18

Where are all the stories?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:20

Because if we're going to change this and make it less invisible,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:23

we need all the different versions of the stories out there.

Helen Bryce: 00:13:28

We a hundred percent need all the different versions.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:31

And so what did it give you to tap into that creativity?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:35

Because I know a lot of the Mamas that I speak to and are in my programs.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:40

They're feeling everything you've written here.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:42

They're every single poem.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:44

You can see yourself in it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:46

You've had those moments.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:47

And so they're internalising it at the moment.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:50

What does that creative outlet give you?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:13:53

How has that changed you?

Helen Bryce: 00:13:55

That gives me so much I use my journal every single day.

Helen Bryce: 00:13:58

And I know you're a big journaling fan, too.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:00

It's.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:01

I, I just think it's a way to, to find some release and to find your voice on the

Helen Bryce: 00:14:07

page, I think is a really powerful thing.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:10

Um, both to be able to reflect back on experiences and then be

Helen Bryce: 00:14:14

able to dissect them a little bit, maybe move on from them, or maybe

Helen Bryce: 00:14:18

celebrate them, whatever that brings.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:20

But also to, to tell stories on the page, I think is just wonderful.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:24

And yeah it made me really happy.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:26

And particularly during lockdown, I think the journaling had, had helped me forever.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:30

Like I I'd always been a big fan of journaling and from having my

Helen Bryce: 00:14:33

first baby, I was always a huge fan.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:34

I journal a lot, but then during lockdown and the pandemic over the last few

Helen Bryce: 00:14:38

years, I'd started doing some poetry courses and workshops and started

Helen Bryce: 00:14:41

writing poetry more consistently.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:44

And it was such a massive outlet, such a release from the day to day.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:49

And look forward to it every week.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:50

And I think we've all got that, haven't we.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:52

We've all got that need for creativity.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:53

I think, whether we've been told we're not creative in school or whether

Helen Bryce: 00:14:57

we've lost it cause we've not had it.

Helen Bryce: 00:14:58

We've not allocated that time to ourselves to be able to do it.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:01

For lots of reasons, I think we've lost it.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:03

Or lots of people have lost it, say we've, I I'd certainly lost it.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:07

And suddenly getting it again.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:08

I felt like I was a teenager.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:10

I felt like I was learning something new and I was able to.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:13

I just, I couldn't get enough of it.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:15

I could not get enough of it once I'd started.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:17

And it's since continued to be a huge part of my selfcare.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:20

So it's, a hobby that I do for like, for hobby's sake, just for fun.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:24

And I don't do it for any other reason.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:26

And again, there's so much.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:28

I think that you, you can't say that to, can you cause you're so busy.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:31

It's uh, it's so hard to justify sometimes.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:33

cause you think if I'm gonna have any time away, it has to be to make money

Helen Bryce: 00:15:36

or it has to be to do something for the good of the family or it has to be,

Helen Bryce: 00:15:40

there's to care for, like, my Mum or my to do something for the community.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:44

And, and I think all of that is important, but also to just have

Helen Bryce: 00:15:47

something for yourself where you just get to play and have fun and express

Helen Bryce: 00:15:51

yourself and understand yourself better and make something beautiful.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:55

Oh, I just think is, wonderful.

Helen Bryce: 00:15:57

And I think everyone should do it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:00

It's the beautiful divine, feminine qualities

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:03

of beauty for the sake of it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:05

Doesn't have to be productive.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:07

You don't have to make money from it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:08

It is to fill your soul to take time and space for yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:12

It's so important and I've spoken over the years with artists painters, drawers,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:19

you know, people who used to make clothes, all of these things that get sucked up

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:25

with those early months of motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:28

And then before they know it, it's been years before they've tapped back into it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:31

And it's a core part of who they were, it's that identity

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:35

they need to bring back in.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:37

So I really love the way you spoke about that, because I know there's

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:40

so many that would be listening right now and just have that little

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:43

spark of, oh yeah, I could do that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:47

So, thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:16:47

That's really beautiful.

Helen Bryce: 00:16:49

I used to run a, a workshop about changing career.

Helen Bryce: 00:16:52

So my background in human resources and, training and development.

Helen Bryce: 00:16:55

So I used to do a lot of workshops and courses, and I did want all about changing

Helen Bryce: 00:16:58

career because this came up a lot.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:00

I think from all those, when they were , thinking about,

Helen Bryce: 00:17:03

wanting to do something new.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:04

And the course was brilliant, but what always used to strike me was that, the

Helen Bryce: 00:17:08

biggest light bulb moments I suppose, came not necessarily about work.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:12

It was always, I've gone back to trying something that I've not done

Helen Bryce: 00:17:14

since I was younger or I've gone back to painting or, writing or whatever

Helen Bryce: 00:17:20

it was, or a certain exercise.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:21

And, and I love that.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:23

I love that it, it started off being about work because that's

Helen Bryce: 00:17:26

often our biggest Paul, isn't it, that we need to do something.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:29

And then, and then it evolves naturally.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:30

We think it's more about it's something else.

Helen Bryce: 00:17:32

And, and that's a beautiful thing.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:34

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:35

And that's what we need as bring that balance in.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:38

I also love that I was reading.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:40

You were worried about your children reading this in the future?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:45

it almost stops you a few times to put it out into the world because,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:51

uh, the reality is it is a lot of reflections on the difficulty and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:17:56

the contrast and the invisibility and the struggles of motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:00

Can you talk to us about that?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:01

Because, this is, again, a very common thing I hear from both, people who

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:06

are writing about motherhood or even just mothers themselves, you know.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:09

They say how difficult it is, but then they always follow up with, but I'm so

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:14

blessed and I'm so grateful and I wouldn't change anything and they almost want to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:17

cover up that they're finding it hard.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:20

That there has been a struggle in this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:22

It's such a big thing to just say, this is my experience.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:26

I love my kids of course.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:18:28

But this is what it feels like to me right now.

Helen Bryce: 00:18:31

You explained that so well, um, yeah, exactly that.

Helen Bryce: 00:18:35

I still do struggle with it.

Helen Bryce: 00:18:36

If I'm honest, I'm still struggling with it.

Helen Bryce: 00:18:38

Because I've, put this book into the world, and occasionally I suddenly

Helen Bryce: 00:18:41

have the, the urge to take it back out and to make sure that no further

Helen Bryce: 00:18:46

copies go into the world and for some of that reason you know, you look at

Helen Bryce: 00:18:50

your children and you love them so much.

Helen Bryce: 00:18:52

And, and the idea that you might have written something that could

Helen Bryce: 00:18:55

hurt them is so, it's so awful that you want to just delete it all.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:01

And then I have to remind myself that actually, that I don't want them to

Helen Bryce: 00:19:05

grow up having the same experiences that I sometimes have with motherhood.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:08

I want them to grow up in a world where motherhood is celebrated

Helen Bryce: 00:19:11

and they're allowed to be the type of mother that they want to be.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:14

And, um, you know, all living in a patriarchy, it's probably a bit

Helen Bryce: 00:19:19

ambitious considering that the oldest is 11, but I, I, I hope for that.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:23

I hope for that.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:23

Yeah.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:24

So.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:26

And then, and then when I remember that, I think if I don't use my

Helen Bryce: 00:19:29

voice, what am I teaching them?

Helen Bryce: 00:19:30

What am I telling them about going out there and talking about what you

Helen Bryce: 00:19:33

believe in and what you're passionate about and what you'd like to change.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:37

And that, that is what keeps me doing it.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:39

And that is what keeps it, keeps it out there.

Helen Bryce: 00:19:41

But I can't pretend that it isn't something that

Helen Bryce: 00:19:43

bothers me cause it, it does.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:19:46

I love that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:19:47

Thank you for being honest.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:19:49

I think, the good mother myth, this idea that we all should be perfect and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:19:55

love every minute of it is never gonna change if we're afraid to show our truth.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:00

And so a book full of poetry about the truth of this experience

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:04

is exactly what we need.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:06

And if we keep pulling it back and hiding it, we're never gonna change it.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz: 00:20:09

Are we?

Helen Bryce: 00:20:10

No, no, we're not.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:11

No, we're not.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:12

So, yeah, I, I hope that they read it and I hope that one day, I

Helen Bryce: 00:20:16

always think just, oh, maybe don't read it before you have children.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:20

maybe it'll feel like this.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:22

maybe it'll feel a little bit, offput saying it's not all negative.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:25

The book has got lots of, uh, poems full of joy.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:27

I hope in it, but it does feel positive, but, I do hope that they read it

Helen Bryce: 00:20:31

one day and I hope that they can see from it that actually, that having a

Helen Bryce: 00:20:35

self and being able to keep that self within, within motherhood and not be,

Helen Bryce: 00:20:38

entirely uh, defined by that title is, can be a positive, beautiful thing.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:45

That, that is what that is.

Helen Bryce: 00:20:46

What I hope they'll get from it one day.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:49

Oh, I love that that having a self within motherhood is so

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:54

important and that self can look like, poetry, it can look like your work, it

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:20:58

can look like a hobby, whatever it is, but we need to find ourselves within this.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:03

Yeah.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:03

Yeah,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:21:04

Mm.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:21:06

So 11 years on from that first experience, four children later, what do you think

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:21:12

motherhood has shown you the most?

Helen Bryce: 00:21:16

Oh, that's a good question.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:19

You know, I dunno whether it's what it's shown me the most, because I

Helen Bryce: 00:21:22

think, I think it's shown me how to love in a way that I never realised.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:26

And that sounds so cliche, doesn't it?

Helen Bryce: 00:21:27

It's so, but it does, doesn't it, you don't realise how much you can possibly

Helen Bryce: 00:21:32

love somebody until, uh, not that I don't love my husband, but it's different.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:37

Oh God.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:37

I'm so in love with these kids.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:39

And they show me how to live, if I'm honest, I know that's really cliche

Helen Bryce: 00:21:42

as well, and I could have written a whole book on this, around how, what

Helen Bryce: 00:21:44

they show me on a daily basis about how to live and what's important in life.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:48

Um, but I think the interesting angle to that also, and I suppose it continues

Helen Bryce: 00:21:51

on the theme of love is that it's really challenged me on loving myself.

Helen Bryce: 00:21:56

I think that that is something that motherhood has given me that

Helen Bryce: 00:21:58

I didn't realise it would give me.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:00

Um, in that I'm really aware that I want my children and particularly my

Helen Bryce: 00:22:05

girls, um not more than my boys, but because I think it's more of a challenge

Helen Bryce: 00:22:10

for my girls, potentially I suppose.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:12

To, to grow up, so in love with themselves, that they are able to then

Helen Bryce: 00:22:18

share that love with the world and feel that love and accept that love.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:21

And I found that really hard and I continue to find that hard and

Helen Bryce: 00:22:25

I work on it every single day.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:26

It's what stops me taking the time to look after myself.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:29

It's what stops me.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:29

It's what, you know, it's where, where all my fears come from.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:31

It's what, it's, what almost makes me take that book off the shelf.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:34

So, uh, I work on that all the time and, and in watching them, I,

Helen Bryce: 00:22:38

I feel that they inspire me to do that more and work harder because I

Helen Bryce: 00:22:42

really want them to feel that too.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:44

And I know that I've got those small, those eyes looking up

Helen Bryce: 00:22:47

at me all the time, haven't I?

Helen Bryce: 00:22:48

Seeing how I speak about my body, how I talk about myself, how I,

Helen Bryce: 00:22:52

prioritise my own wellbeing, you know, they're watching and I don't say

Helen Bryce: 00:22:56

that in a way to like, make you feel guilty or make myself feel guilty.

Helen Bryce: 00:22:59

I say it because I think it's a beautiful thing.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:02

I say it because it's, I think it's a gift.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:05

That they give me in doing that because they allow me to really work on that.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:08

And I think that's a lifelong thing that I'll constantly be working on

Helen Bryce: 00:23:11

because, um, it doesn't come easily.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:14

Mm beautifully said.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:16

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:17

Thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:18

So to finish, I would love if you could read us one of the poems from your book,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:25

one of the poems from your collection.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:28

So everybody can hear what it's like and, and reflect on it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:31

Thank you so much, Helen.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:23:33

It's been really, really beautiful.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:35

Thank you.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:35

I'd love to.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:35

So, um, I'll read one called Imagining A Motherhood No Longer Wrapped In

Helen Bryce: 00:23:40

Cellophane On A Garage Forecourt.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:44

Imagine a world glistening with mothers.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:48

Where they grow wild on street corners and down shared walkways.

Helen Bryce: 00:23:53

Have roots in the centres of glass buildings, where they bloom

Helen Bryce: 00:23:56

and grow out loud - every breath more alive for their existence.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:02

Where we ask children to paint them in Spring, to capture their

Helen Bryce: 00:24:06

yellowy, youthful hopefulness.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:08

Then, when the daylight hours are longer, put them in vases center stage

Helen Bryce: 00:24:13

on long tables to eat great food.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:16

If their bodies should fall to the ground; bruised perhaps, from the harsher weather.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:21

Imagine that, we gather them up and stir them into potions, feel intoxicating

Helen Bryce: 00:24:26

glass bottles of blues, greens, pinks.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:29

Colours that go far beyond what we assumed we knew, and for which

Helen Bryce: 00:24:32

people will cue for miles and miles, will beg to understand, appreciating

Helen Bryce: 00:24:37

that they are truly life-giving.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:40

Where we weave their fierceness into spiky cinnamon scented wreaths or dry

Helen Bryce: 00:24:45

them as their vibrancy fails, but is no less beautiful, place them purposefully

Helen Bryce: 00:24:50

next to fireplaces, and on polished wooden dressers, where visitors will

Helen Bryce: 00:24:55

stop and stare, unable to pass by.

Helen Bryce: 00:24:59

Oblivious.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:03

Wow goosebumps.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:06

Thank you so much.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:07

I will put all the details, how people can get a copy of this, cause

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:10

it will be on shelves everywhere.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:14

That's what we want and what we need.

Helen Bryce: 00:25:15

Thank Thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:16

Thank you so much.

Helen Bryce: 00:25:17

Uh, thank you so much for the work you do.

Helen Bryce: 00:25:19

You're a massive inspiration.

Helen Bryce: 00:25:21

So I really appreciate it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:23

Thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:24

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:25

Thanks so much.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:26

This little collection of poetry is a really beautiful bedside book.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:32

I know often I want to just read something, reflect on something before I

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:37

fall asleep, but picking up a big book and trying to get through a whole chapter is

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:42

too much at the end of a really full day.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:45

This book can be that little check in with yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:49

The collection of poetry is beautiful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:52

It is such a divine insight into the realities of motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:25:57

And as you read them, you can really reflect on how invisible it

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:03

is, but how you can start seeing yourself in a different way.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:08

Motherhood Minus the Medals by Nelly Bryce, all the

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:12

details are in the show notes.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:14

And you can also follow Nelly on Instagram, share this far and white

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:20

as always and leave a review, so more and more mums can hear these stories

Amy Taylor Kabbaz: 00:26:25

and start the conversation as well.