#189 – Mothering Our Sons the New Way with Sarah Poet

Welcome to the happy mama movement podcast. I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz. I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the aura nation on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of this land. And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging. And as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom. Their knowing and my own elders and teachers

Welcome back Mamas. What does it mean to remember yourself? Especially in the process of motherhood? Just recently, I recorded a podcast episode about feeling like I am lost myself in motherhood, and it's what I hear in all of the programs and coachings I've done over the years. I feel like I lost myself. But in this interview, in this divine conversation with Sarah Poet, we talk about how matresence and motherhood can actually become a remembering.

Does that mean it's obvious and easy? Hell no. Sarah Poet is a phenomenal voice in the space of masculine and feminine energies. Her podcasts Sacred Remembering is a must listen as is her TEDx talk. Sarah joined me on the podcast to talk about her experience of becoming a mother, an unusual and unique experience.

As you will hear in just a moment and how at first she did lose herself. She questioned her worthiness to be a mother and then went on a mission to prove she was worthy. And yet like motherhood and matresence does to all of us over and over again, there was a moment of reckoning of awakening and of remembering of who she really was.

It's a divine and inspiring story, and I know you're going to love it. Enjoy.

Sarah. It is a great honor to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to meet you and great to be here.

I am so excited to just be witnessed to the story you're about to share. Because I know it's going to be filled with so much gold and insights. So could we perhaps please start with your experience of becoming a Mama, and as a coach and a mentor and a teacher in the space of masculine and feminine energies in a real awakening of a woman, what did motherhood bring to you?

Thank you so much for this question. And, um, I think I'm gonna surprise you a little bit with my answer because you know that I have a 13 year old son I've shared that. And I, I share about that on Instagram, although I'm always asking him to do a little Instagram videos with me and he won't do it. Um, but anyway, I let the secret out that I do have this 13 year old son. Um, but I actually have a 22 year old daughter that, um, I didn't raise. So I gave birth to a child at the age of 19 myself, and she was adopted at birth. But I, chose her family, placed her for adoption. So I've actually had, um, like two awakening experiences with children.

Um, and I alluded to this in my TEDx when, where I shared the story of, of having her at such a young age , and I'm pausing here because it's such a big thing to summarise. But, what that awakened in me was really what I call a sacred remembering of the feminine. Now I did not have those words back then.

But, nothing around me was saying, birth this child naturally, or, you know, I mean, I had such intuitions while I was pregnant with her. Um, knowing that she would be adopted that as an 18, 19 year old, I was hearing very, very clear, like clear audient messages about what her name should be, who her parents should be.

And, I didn't realise, you know, how special that was then or, um, or that, that everybody didn't have those experiences, I guess that, you know, and so I had a big feminine awakening through that because I did birth her naturally. Like I really, um, even though she, she would be adopted and that was sort of the, the family pressure, the societal pressure of, you know, you're not there yet. You are not prepared yet. You're not married yet. You're not a graduate of college yet. You don't, um, have a job and money and success yet and achievement yet. And so this child, you know, you're not ready yet was the message. And I felt that, that I had no other choice in some ways. Um, and so what that pregnancy awakened, and I just took that so seriously, like I was her harbinger, like I was bringing her through. And I knew that, and I knew with every ounce of me that like, that's what I was meant to do.

And it was very, very secret. And Amy, and I know you and your listeners will understand this after that with a message. So, um, you know, so heavy, like you can not have your child because you're not a success yet. Um, I dove into, um, well, how am I going to become enough to be worthy of a child to be worthy of motherhood?

And so that ruled me for many years. And I would say that my twenties was ruled by that. Because I, uh, so I went to college. I was back in school three weeks after my daughter was born. You know, because of the message of like, go make something of yourself go achieve. And so three weeks later, I started back in college.

I hopped around trying to figure out what I was going to do in college, you know, three times, because it was like, no one was talking to me about the trauma that had just happened. The, the recipe was like, just go make something of yourself and you'll feel better. It's just so wild. This will be a memoir one day.

Oh please, it has be I'm fascinated. Was, it was in an assumption that you just need to pretend that didn't happen almost.

Um, the assumption, one of the messages, the core messages was because it was an open adoption and I knew where she was and I was getting updates from her that somehow I should just be able to move on. And I operated under that kind of pressure for a few years, you know, as I went to college and, and just tried to succeed and get my life on track.

And then at one point I found a book, I'm a little off track here, but quickly I'll share that I found a book that was about, um, women who had been sent away to have babies and the, you know, decades before where, um, women were just completely ostracized for pregnancies out of, marriage and all of that.

And so when I read these like sociological accounts of these women who never met their child. Um, they had a lot going on psychologically that I had going on and here I was like, but I'm supposed to feel okay because I know where my child is. And so that really opened the door for me, that I wasn't okay. And that you cannot possibly, truly heal that loss just by achieving. Um, but that was so deeply, deeply ingrained that I put myself in therapy, I think when she was two and a half. So it took that long for me to like, realize that. And then, um, You know, I've been unraveling those societal messages, like forever.

Like we all are, um, To return to your question. So I was very, very much interested in becoming a mother again, like that was all I wanted and that drove me. And so, um, when my son was born, my daughter was nine. When my son was born, I was twenty seven, twenty eight. And, um, he, we have such an amazing connection. Anyone who wants a child that bad, and then that little child in the stars like raises their hand and says, I'll go to that woman. You know, I kind of joke. And I'm like, you really signed up for, for a wild ride with a Mama like me and, um, We've just been, we've been very close, but I didn't have my like reawakening until he was probably two.

Because I was like making all the organic baby food and, you know, went back to work, um, like 36 hours full time. Um, at seven months, I was fortunate to have like a seven month maternity leave. Um, and I was juggling it all and I was like a super star, um, in a really, in a way that I look at and I'm like, well, that was where I used up all my energy, because it was really, I did quite a bit because I had wanted to be a mother for so long that I was like an overachieving mother, um, in some ways.

It's interesting to me that you said, you know, with your daughter, you weren't worthy of motherhood yet because you weren't successful and you didn't have your shit together in the society's way and cultural way. And so then when your son came along, it's almost as if from just hearing this insight. It's almost it's well, I'm going to show the world. I am so I have so much of my shit together. Look how organized and productive I am. And I make the baby food from scratch and I work full time and I do this. Is that what it feels like?

That's, I think that's really astute, you know, in hindsight, and at the time, I didn't know I was doing that. I just felt like I had to do everything. I definitely felt like I had to, continue to climb the career ladders, like continue to do that achievement. I mean, that was so deeply ingrained that I was still doing that, but still really trying to have the experience of motherhood that I had longed for.

And, when I say that I had a spiritual awakening when he was a toddler, you know, I had married his father who had been my like high school, best friend, you know? Um, and I, I just knew that I had left something very, very significant of myself back there somewhere. And the, the exhaustion that was like, I mean, you know, all women know.

Okay, we're trying to achieve, we're trying to do the things, fill the roles, um, follow the like prescription for the enoughness, and then there's this wake up moment where you realize that that was full of shit, or like that was not it. And I call it the sacred remembering moment. The like, wait, I left something of myself back there and my podcast is called sacred remembering.

Um, and it's like, I remembered my essence. And that's what I try to, you know, say to women as like we're calling ourselves home. Right, so we remember that, yes, there's something more, but there's something more is us. Thats what we've lost track of because we were, we were trying our best in all the ways.

That's it in Mama Rising, we call it the rigged system. This, idea of being so caught up in a system that tells you if you do these things, you will be so happy and so successful. This is what you need to be working towards. And we do, we get caught up in this system and then we have this moment and I love that you call it a sacred remembering.

We have this moment when we realize, hang on a second, the system is rigged. It's not set up for women. It's not set up for mothers. It's not going to work.

No,

And that is for many of us, this it's, it's a crash landing. What was it like for you? What was that sacred remembering like?

Thank you for that question. I literally had a cloud partying moment. I mean, I was outside with my toddler and like the sun came through the clouds. I kid you not, you know, and it hit me and I, and I remembered myself before my daughter. And I remembered how much I loved her father very genuinely loved my daughter's father and how, um, carefree I had been and really, truly very soulful.

I mean, I was an old soul. And so as an 18 year old, I was like the most alive I had ever been. And, but, you know, it took me. Some time from that point to figure out what I was going to do about it. Because here I had this young child and my ex-husband and I, I had gotten married, like after he was born, even though we had been together for many, many years.

Before that. And so, you know, it was like, well, am I going to disassemble this marriage? Am I going to work to try try another round of counseling? So I think I invited that, but then I also started to kind of answer my own call. Um, and so we lived in a place with a lot of nature, thankfully, and then I was in nature all the time.

And then I, um, I had so much trauma truly in my system from not only my daughter's birth and loss, but also from my childhood. And I didn't know that it was trauma. I just was like super high functioning. And so, um, I started therapies and I discovered mindfulness and like Buddhism and, I was looking for that way to, I guess, calm the mind.

Like that was my first entry point. But during that time, that span of years, my body was also getting sicker. It like it was beginning to give me louder and louder and louder signals and, um, pretty impossible to ignore. And so I did leave the marriage, um, you know, within like two years of that. And as soon as I left the marriage and like moved my things, I crashed that's when I crashed, um,

Yes.

And I found a trauma-based body-based therapist think by the grace of God, I mean the perfect woman and I had been holding it all together for so long.

And that was where I finally had the space and another woman who could see what I was about to do and what I was going to go through. And Amy, it was so special because I am a go getter. I want the answers, I want the soul truth and all of that. And she, I couldn't afford her. 'cause I was like on a teacher salary.

And, um, by this point I had bought a house. Like I had no business buying a house on my North Carolina teacher's salary, you know, but, um, I guess I was a principal by then, but, um, but anyway, I couldn't afford her and she looked at me and she was like, I want to work with you more than I want to work with anybody.

You're my ideal client. And she essentially gifted me therapy for a year every week for you. So that first year after my divorce, I did trauma therapy every week with her. Um, and we went so, so, so deep. She was a godsend.

It is so important that we heal in the space of another woman who can hold that space for us, isn't it?

I absolutely agree. And, Anne was, is her name? Um, she's a friend of mine. I invited her to my TEDx, you know, because like she had seen me unravel and then, you know, five, six years later I was on the TEDx stage and I was like, you're the one I want there. But she, you know, as a body-based, she was a Hakomi therapist, if you're familiar with that.

And, um, Hakomi is, um, a wonderful, wonderful modality. Um, and she combined it with internal family systems. And so in Hakomi you practice mindfulness and you practice meeting the body in the area where the trauma is hanging on tight, you know? Cause the body is remembering the trauma that our mind does not remember.

And so I remember one day my, my legs were like up against the couch as I was talking. And she noticed that and she was like, I'm just curious. What would happen if I placed my hands on the front of your legs? So she gets down on the floor in front of the couch I was sitting on. And this was unheard of to me.

Like who's going to get on their knees in front of me just to help me heal, you know? And she put her hands on the front of my calves and because I was holding so much there that day, who knows what it was, I start crying. And I didn't know about this kind of work yet. And she's just literally holding my legs on the floor in front of me.

And I was like, get up, what are you doing? Why are you doing it? I didn't know how to accept it. And then I was like, why am I crying? And she's like, you don't need to know. Um, and she just, she just held me. And that's what that year with Anne was like. You know, and then we went on from there and I went to other modalities from there. But so special to have a woman be like, I see what you need and I'm going to give it to you right now.

And, you know, no doubt Anne knew to provide that because she had walked that road. Somebody else had held that space for her. No doubt.

And That's how we do it. We pass it down and we support each other. When you say the sacred remembering of the feminine, can you explain to us what that means to you? The feminine, the remembering of the feminine in your story, in your experience.

So, this is something that I've been walking with for about nine or 10 years now. So the answer would be very long and deep. If I were to, um, try to give you a summary, the way it started was, actually I was a school principal and I tell the story in the TEDx too, but I was being insulted for like trying to use intuition in decisions around children.

And I just knew that we were making some wrong decisions and I was fighting for the children based on like instinct, intuition, gut, you know, and I walked out of a meeting one day, so mad.

Because, and I remember saying like in my head, I know that intuition is a thing. I know that the feminine is a thing and I'm going to go find it.

And so from there, I really started reading like union archetypes and like Marion Woodman is my favorite. And so I was getting into the psychology, uh, and, and almost like the energies, the feminine and masculine energies and how they behave in us. Also, knowing that I had so much tension and trauma and hypervigilance in my system.

And so at that time, the feminine was about, you know, resting. Learning to listen to intuition. But then when I started the trauma healing, I realized how much the feminine was, the body and the feminine was matter. And so I spent a few years really reclaiming that.

Yeah.

Um, Fast forward right now, I'm in this beautiful space with, with the feminine that I'm calling the Sophie Anik Essence. Which is the feminine beyond the imprints of society, the feminine beyond what we've defined it as, but the feminine as a current and the feminine as, um, It's an energy it's, it's like this beautiful, uh, replenishing, like ever replenishing, ever nurturing, ever life giving, essence. And it's love.

And it's the heart.

And so when I am a woman without trauma, when I, wow. I mean, we're never like, you know, but the more I clear. Right, right, right. Um, I don't mean to be like, I'm over here free of all of the shit, cause I'm definitely not. Yeah. But you know, when we're, when we can tap into the place beyond the identification with trauma and beyond the things, that have happened to us and beyond the stories about men.

Um, then we can tap into the feminine that that is pure love and it has so much to do with the earth body. And, um, like with the essence of welcoming, I feel that a lot. Yeah.

Wow. I love the way you've described that, thank you. That was really beautiful. And I can feel it in my body and I wish everyone who was listening could've seen Sarah's hands, then. It was if she was dancing with this feminine energy. It was just beautiful to witness. Thank you.

Can I say, can I say something about energy that might help people to, um, like experience it a little bit more?

Please, yes.

So when we have fear and trauma and shut down as women in society, like when we're guarded, there is a clamping down of energy and like we protect. And so in that energetic, it's, there's a closure.

And also we begin to fight for either or. There's this either or energy, like either I'm safe or I'm not safe. Or either I have what I need or I don't have what I need. And so the feminine closes because it's trying to figure out, am I safe? Am I not safe? You know, women can feel this, like in relationships with men, it's like, do I open, do I not open?

And then, so we're caught in this, um, dichotomy, like we're caught in this false polarity. And so, feminine that heals that, inversion I'll call it, that false hood, blooms and replenishes. So I see that like, um, you know, like fountains of energy or fountains of blooms that overlap where there's just infinite possibilities.

So, you know, we really just ideally want to get to the place where, um, where that fear and scarcity and closure and self protection can heal so that we can feel genuine replenishment, you know, it's and it actually, it's really cool. It's like different geometries, like different energetic patterns, um, that we begin to hold in our body.

And when you said before, it took you, Um,

after that awakening, that remembering when your son was a toddler and you said it took me a while to answer the call of myself. loved that line so much, I had to write it down. I was like, answer the call of myself. And now when you explain what the feminine feels like and how you're so aware of when that energy is squished and contracted, and am I safe?

And then how do you step back into the flow? To me, that is the answering of the call.

I love that.

it's about coming back to our body and understanding and learning how to hear it and stay open and recognize when we're not open and, and bring ourselves back into this moment. The parts we might've left behind.

Hm. Hm. I recently went through another layer of this, you know, because the, the, um, the habits run deep. And as an entrepreneur, I was doing and trying to make something happen. And that is, you know, the patriarchal nature of things. And I had just gotten in this habit of thinking that that's the way it should work and then things were not flowing, but I was frustrated and continuing in the, like a productivity pattern.

Uh, productivity trap, you know, like, well, if I just do more or do these things, then something might open. And of course that was not working because my soul, I don't have permission to behave like that anymore and hope for good results. So, you know, I had to pause and do just what you just described. Um, And I started evaluating according to my body, what feels good in my system that gets to stay what does not feel good in my system that gets to go.

And so offerings in my business went, uh, my presence on Facebook went. Thank God that took a long time for me to listen to that one. Um, and I'm pausing on my podcast to finish some book drafts, and that was a surprise, but these book drafts are calling me and it's actually, like painful to my feminine system to not be with that art and that craft. But in the, uh, you know, disease of productivity, I was not allowing that to happen.

Um, so yeah, yeah, just really re-evaluating and slept for like a week because my body was like, thank God. I've been trying to get your attention.

And that's what

the feminine does. She tries get our attention. And, this experience of becoming a mother. And. thank you for sharing both of those experiences with us. It was such a beautiful insight.

You're so welcome.

And I'm going to take so much away from this conversation, especially around the remembering of the sacred, feminine, but also this idea of being worthy of a child and how,

our cultural expectations, the patriarchy, the way that we've completely undervalued the feminine for so long does make us feel that we are worthy when we are busy. We are worthy when we are successful.

Yeah.

And so I guess to bring this all together now, as your son is 13 and your daughter is, did you say 22?

Uh, she turns 22 this summer. Yeah, I left ahead a little bit. She's 21. Yeah.

So 21 years later, what would be your reflections on, on who you are a mother and what, uh, being a mother that is deeply seated in herself, what does that mean? What does that look like?

So when my daughter was a few years old and I began to awaken to what had been, uh, the, the ruse. I wish that my mother, I, I began to say, like, I wish that my mother just would have said, like being a mother is enough. And being a woman is enough and you'll figure it out. And, um, but what she knew to tell me, because she was actually a school principal and, um, you know, had had the credits for a doctorate and all that.

I mean, she was highly successful and driven. And so, um, she, she knew what she knew. And, and then I began to look backwards through the family line and be like, oh, well this was how that woman learned to survive. Right. And sometimes that involved making choices with the body or making choices about her children or making choices about her success, according to,

what the patriarchy was saying at that time, in that generation.

Exactly.

So your question, I know I went backwards before going forwards, but so,

Isn't that the dance of the feminine though. I love it. We feel into it first. And then we hear the answer.

Yeah. So, I mean, for me, there's so much lineage here, healing inherent in, in how we parent and looking at my son. I see the ways that I got it right. And I see the ways that I haven't. And so I show up every day and I course correct. And I have really honest conversations with him. I, I parent differently probably than most.

I'm very, um, I let him talk about anything and thank God he still does. You know, he's still talking to Mum and that matters to me. And so I want him to know that I'm a safe space. I want him to know that, um, he can trust him. Um, and I also never want him to give up on him. And so I hold him to a pretty high standard and yes, I do talk to him about the masculine and feminine.

And I, he goes to boys groups and goes to rites of passage and all of these things. But I call him to, I try not to put an exceeding amount of pressure on him or anything like that. Like, he's gotta be a perfect white male or anything, but I do let him know that there is a history here that he's stepping into, and that he has responsibility and his personality his astrology his gene keys, everything points to, uh, his leadership capacity.

And so while I'm somewhat fluid and flexible. And I really want to hear from him when he's backing away from who he actually is, I call him forward. And, uh, I recently did this and I made him go to a basketball tryouts. Because I just had that hunch. Like it was a knowing in my mother system that that child could not back away from basketball.

And I knew that if he did, he was going to gravitate more towards screens and more towards self isolation and, and more toward negativity. And I was like, kid, you have too much leadership capacity. To, um, to go down that route. And so I made him go and then I gave him the choice after the first practice and thank God he decided to join the team.

I know. So I'm in and it's going, well, it did need to happen. So I hope that answers your question.

Oh, it does. Sarah talk to you for days. But

yeah.

we do need to bring this to a close, but I would love to hear your reflections on this final thought as I was listening to what you, how you parent your son. I too have been on a, an enormous exploration and understanding, and study and dedication to understanding the masculine and feminine energies over the last few years. And of course each, we all have our own interpretation, but this is the way I feel. You know, the feminine knows who this person is. Sees it, knows it, feels it. Knows your son leadership in him knows that the outdoors is better than the indoors for him and holds that vision. Like that's why, when I hear the feminine being called the Oracle, it's the one who knows and sees. And I love, and that's what I heard you described as sin and how you parent is that, you know,

um,

Who is, and you will hold him to that trust that that's who he's going to become trust and know that that's who he is here to be.

It just was for me a divine, uh, explanation of what it looks like to be in that feminine knowing it was just a beautiful example.

Hmm, thank you so much. And that is how I want to relate to the masculine, no matter, you know, what age or size is, um, seeing the heart and seeing the truth of it. And it's not up to me, it's not up to the women or the feminine to tell the masculine or men how to be.

oh,

It's not. And we have to trust them that they are going to know.

yes.

might need to remind them every now and then of who we see in them, but there is never a, you need to do it this way. No, they need to find it themselves. And what a beautiful way to parent our boys.

Uh, thanks for reflecting that. Yeah, I get it wrong a lot of the times. So thanks for reflecting that.

It has been an absolute joy to speak to you. Thank you for your insights and your honesty and vulnerability and wisdom really was such a joy.

You're so welcome. And it's such a pleasure to meet you. You're a wonderful interviewer. This was a lot of fun.

Good, thank you.

I know. It's my favorite thing to do. If I could just do this all day every day, then, you know, that's what I'm creating. That's what I'm here to create. So Thank you

Thank you for your work. Yes.

Thank you so much.

This is one of those interviews. I wish you had been able to see and not just hear. Because Sarah's presence the way she used her hands to describe the feminine energy was just so delicious to watch and witness, but I'm sure you still felt that come through her voice and her story. As you probably know if you've been listening for a while, exploring the masculine and feminine energies has become a core part of my work and my life.

It has been mind blowing to realize just how far into the masculine energy I was and how much I had forgotten who I was in that process. If you want to follow along and learn more about Sarah's work in this area, you can go to her Instagram account, embodied breaths, and follow her links to her website.

Her work. It is the divine to witness and remember, and please as always leave a review on your podcast player. So more and more Mama's can find these conversations and we can rise together.

Thank you for being a part of this conversation, Mama. We change the way mothers are valued and seen in our society and our world by bringing these conversations to light and spreading the whispers of matresence. And so I ask you to be a part of this movement now. Speak to others around you about matresence. About your experience of motherhood.

Let's bring it to light together. To find out more about my matresence.

Go to amytaylorkabbaz.com forward slashmatresence. And receive your free ebook the matresence map. So you can understand it even deeper. Thank you for being a part of this. Until next week. Satnam.